Malhuer National Wildlife Reserve Armed Protest

[2ndthyme]

The problem is when the feds gobble and close off public land to logging, mining, ranching these communities become poor with 50-60% govt employees and the rest on unemployment welfare etc. We have already been through it here in Ferry County....same thing in Burns, Oregon....there is a human toll in this that never gets mentioned. If anyone watched any of the protests in Burns yesterday would understand this. This is pitting American against Americans. I don't think anyone has even grasped the situation in Oregon.

ok I'll bite, what situation in Oregon?

[FredK]

The problem is when the feds gobble and close off public land to logging, mining, ranching these communities become poor with 50-60% govt employees and the rest on unemployment welfare etc. ........

Blaze the government owes no one a life on their land. They own the land and until they want to sell or give it away it's theirs to do with as they please.

Now the question on the table is why is this such a big deal to the Bundys since they haven't paid anything for close to 20 years.

And Tx, are you back tracking on states paying money to the fed?

[Dave Grubb]

Blaze the government owes no one a life on their land. They own the land and until they want to sell or give it away it's theirs to do with as they please.

I have to take exception to that Fred. The Federal Government (being the representative of the people) is the steward of that land but there is nothing in that charge that says in the process of doing so they should ignore the local governments and the people of the area.

At least part of the problem (I suggest) is that this land is being managed by "remote control" from Washington with little (or at times insufficient) concern and cooperation with the people who are most impacted by their decisions. The outcome of such a style is that the people most impacted by these remote control decisions feel disenfranchised--which is understandable.

[2ndthyme]

I have to take exception to that Fred. The Federal Government (being the representative of the people) is the steward of that land but their is nothing in that charge that says in the process of doing that they should ignore the local governments and the people of the area.

At least part of the problem (I suggest) is that this land is being managed by "remote control" from Washington with little (or at times insufficient) concern and cooperation with the people who are most impacted by their decisions. The outcome of such a style is that the people most impacted by these remote control decisions feel disenfranchised--which is understandable.

I can agree with that

[Truckman]

... what is that? is it an old guy thing?

Who you callin' old?......Ben

[Truckman]

Blaze the government owes no one a life on their land. They own the land and until they want to sell or give it away it's theirs to do with as they please.

i mentioned this earlier in the thread, Fred, but it may have gone unnoticed...The government owns no land...We, the people, own it..."They" is us...As Dave said, the feds are merely the stewards of our land......Ben

[blaze]

Most likely you wont see this clip on MSM. This protest was organized by two militia's the PPT and the 3 percenters. The gal narrating the clip is Deb Jordan. Her partner Pete Santilli was arrested covering this last week and is still in a Portland jail. This clip was taken around 12 pm yesterday in front of the burns courthouse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKb7l-7yy10

[Dave Grubb]

Blaze, you continue to talk about this not being covered by the "MSM" and that simply is not the case. No, they will not put up a 20 or 30 minute video narrated by an obviously biased source but they are reporting on what is taking place.
Here is the story of this event in the New York Times.
Here is a story from yesterday.

I'm sure the coverage doesn't make either side of this sad affair feel they are being portrayed fairly but that is the nature of the game. Having followed this in the MSM (multiple sources) I do believe most are trying to cover it with as much balance as possible and doing a fairly decent job of it and presenting the arguments of both sides.

[blaze]

Here is the interview with one of the girls in the back seat in Lavoy's truck. Pay close attention and listen to the entire interview because on condition of her release all firearms were to be removed from her house. Her husband did just that and took them to her son-in-laws house. Her son-in-law moved the guns to the basement where something exploded and consumed him in a fire, he died.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJch_UJBbLo

[mgrist]

Here is the interview with one of the girls in the back seat in Lavoy's truck. Pay close attention and listen to the entire interview because on condition of her release all firearms were to be removed from her house. Her husband did just that and took them to her son-in-laws house. Her son-in-law moved the guns to the basement where something exploded and consumed him in a fire, he died.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJch_UJBbLo

Did the feds know where she had taken the guns. I assume it was hunting rifles and such and not illegal or the feds would have took them, not allowing her to move them. If the feds did all this they would have had a reason, real or supposed. What did the fed gain by this guy dying? Was he one of the "leaders" did he have some kind of evidence? know to much?

[FredK]

http://in.reuters.com/article/marsh-bundy-idINL2N15H1WT

Ammon and his brother Ryan Bundy had issued an array of claims and accusations that resonate with many Western land users. Who are the enemies they confront? The federal government, the Bureau of Land Management and even Linda Sue Beck, a biologist at the wildlife refuge whose office they are occupying, draw the ire of the Bundy brothers and their followers.

Declarations of federal tyranny, divine inspiration and potential armed revolution provided a barrage of headlines, media musings and fodder for political analysts and late-night talk-show hosts alike. But why does this rhetoric sound so familiar and why are so many sympathetic to the message, if not the method? Because it's based on the myth of the American West - a land of good guys and bad.

To many Americans, the West remains a place of nostalgia, fueled by decades of enthralling tales that reverberate with man's conquest of an untamed land. It is a "West" occupied by cowboys and Indians, ranchers and pioneers, lawmen and gamblers. It's rife with guns and violence, where the good guy in the white hat takes a stand against a bad guy in a black hat. It is this imaginary West that infuses the rhetoric and misguided agenda of the Oregon protestors. One idea ties it all together: land rights.

The West, real or imagined, is about land and its claimants. It remains a vast and largely unoccupied geographic space that encompasses a multitude of ecosystems and crosses numerous state and tribal boundaries. Federal lands, like those disputed by the Bundy family, are managed for the benefit of the nation. The Bundy brothers lease the land and must, like all renters, abide by the contract terms. The federal government rents grazing land at a price far below market value. But the Bundy family, including father Cliven Bundy, decided to stop paying the rent.

Ironically, Ammon Bundy's objective is to reclaim control of "our land" for the local population. When he was asked what it would take to end the occupation, Bundy responded, "When the people of Harney County are secure enough and confident enough that they can continue to manage their own land and their own rights and resources."

Yet, it is not their land.

Throughout the 19th-century, the juggernaut of U.S. expansion into the continental West was rapid and lucrative for many Americans. It was, however, often ruinous for the environment, and it shattered the Native American societies occupying the territory.

The West became a proving ground of an imagined American character and national fortitude. Mythical battles between civilization ("white settlers") and "savagery" (Native Americans, cattle rustlers) were played out in deserts, prairies and mountains. For the Bundy encampment and its sympathizers, it was their contest and their battle. Character and manhood were to be tested. The protestors were the self-appointed white hats, standing up for misconstrued ideas of "freedom" and "liberty" in this most recent showdown.

But who are the black hats this time? An old and familiar opponent: the federal government........

[blaze]

Did the feds know where she had taken the guns.

these guns were left in Utah while she was in Oregon getting arrested with the Bundy gang. While she was still in jail her husband (court order) removed all their guns from the house so the guns were out before she got home. Last I heard today her attorney got notice about some gag order. Evidently the Feds don't like her and the teen girl that also verified her story with hers talking about the case...so why didn't the judge issue the gag order on condition of her release with a case of this magnitude?

[mgrist]

I have to take exception to that Fred. The Federal Government (being the representative of the people) is the steward of that land but there is nothing in that charge that says in the process of doing so they should ignore the local governments and the people of the area.

At least part of the problem (I suggest) is that this land is being managed by "remote control" from Washington with little (or at times insufficient) concern and cooperation with the people who are most impacted by their decisions. The outcome of such a style is that the people most impacted by these remote control decisions feel disenfranchised--which is understandable.

Ahhh! I've been thinking along the same line as Fred, I'll have to adjust my thinking. In the same regard though it's hard to see what people are really doing on the land when it's all remote control, like anything else it's probably 50/50 on whether the leaser's maintain the land correctly or per contract anyway. In other words we have another broken system, it shouldn't take people getting shot and killed to get it fixed. But then that's why government goons are shooting instead of talking, if the system gets fixed to many politicians are going to lose money.

[Truckman]

it's hard to see what people are really doing on the land when it's all remote control, like anything else it's probably 50/50 on whether the leaser's maintain the land correctly or per contract anyway.

Here is what the BLM says: LINK...

The terms and conditions for grazing on BLM-managed lands (such as stipulations on forage use and season of use) are set forth in the permits and leases issued by the Bureau to public land ranchers.

I'm postng this before reading it, so don't blame me for any content interpretation......Ben

[mgrist]

.so why didn't the judge issue the gag order on condition of her release with a case of this magnitude?

I think it's new territory so to speak for a lot of people, there is a lot of hindsight going on, the feds can do that and get away with it. The whole thing has gone farther than either side imagined and as much as I loath government employees I think it was the Bundy's that pushed this whole thing over the edge. Having said that, it may have been the plan all along, though getting dead probably wasn't. I'd bet money there are a lot of people making a lot of illegal money's off of federal land. A little redundancy here on my part in these last two posts, I wanted to answer blaze and Dave's post and my simple mind tends to run things together.